Ouch Podcast #55 – September 2010
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Simon Minty and Liz Carr

The Ouch Podcast is a download from the BBC. For more information, and our terms of use, go to bbc.co.uk/ouch.

LIZ		Hi, I'm Liz Carr this month no it's not Mat Fraser it's Simon Minty. 
 
SIMON	 All right, Liz, lovely to be back. On today's show Ian Dury the late, great disabled rock star who is the inspiration behind Reasons To Be Cheerful, a musical about to take to the road. Two members of the cast will be joining us from the studio. 
 
LIZ	In about ten minutes catch up on some top disability stories with our resident newshound Rob Crossan. 
 
SIMON	And Ginger The Cat by Jo Langston is the title of this month's music track. Jo will be popping in at the end of the show to tell us all about the Orpheus Project where there's very original songs created. 
 
LIZ	Plus the Veg quiz, acres of disability chatter and a few surprises as well, so stay with us, we won't cure you but we might make you stronger. 

[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show]
 
SIMON		Did you have a good Sunday evening did you, Liz? 
 
LIZ 		Oh I had a very interesting Sunday but more of that later I think. 
 
SIMON		Yeah but I've seen a picture. 
 
LIZ	Anyway, so I've had a good month, I'll be honest. No, no I have apart from Sunday which was yeah anyway we'll talk about Sunday later. I've had a week in Cornwall in a cottage, very lovely, on a farm and I have had no internet. No...
 
SIMON		Was that quite hard for you, you're quite a fan. 
 
LIZ	Oh you know I don't know how many times I check my emails every day "Oh I'll just check, oh there's no one, I wonder if there is 30 seconds later" no really I can be like that and it was amazing, we just couldn't get it, the place where we were staying didn't have it and my donglely thingy you know where you can get your roving internet that didn't work. 
 
SIMON		What about your phone - did you have a reception? 
 
LIZ	I don't have... oh I had reception on the phone but I don't have the internet on the phone. 
 
SIMON		Right, you were really cut off properly. 
 
LIZ	It was really... it was back in what it must have been like, I don't know, in the '80s and the '90s it took me back. 
 
SIMON		Crazy, can you remember those times?
 
LIZ		Took me right back. 
 
SIMON		What were you doing there? 
 
LIZ	We were there for a bit of a holiday and you know because I'd say we're staying at home and having our holidays in England this year. 
 
SIMON		Staycation. 
 
LIZ	Staycation ñ very trendy to staycate. I was doing that. And I was making wedding rings. 
 
SIMON		You... 
 
LIZ		Simon, there's a gap. 
 
SIMON		You yourself were making wedding rings or you were... 
 
LIZ		Yes it's not a new career whereas I'm like... 
 
SIMON		A craft week.
 
LIZ		... working in a factory as a wedding ring maker. 
 
SIMON		(inaudible) have diversified haven't they? 
 
LIZ		Car parking attendant, lift attendant and wedding ring makers. 
 
SIMON		Yeah that's a skill. 
 
LIZ		No getting married later in the year and so... 
 
SIMON		Of course. 
 
LIZ		... me and my partner decided to make our own wedding rings. 
 
SIMON		That sounds terribly, terribly... 
 
LIZ		We were knitting them. 
 
SIMON	 	... romantic. 
 
LIZ		 We weren't. 
 
SIMON	 I ignored the knitting bit but that sounds a really romantic lovely thing to do. Are they all done, I mean, what happens now? 
 
LIZ	 No they are, yeah they are. So it was just a day and you make them out of whatever metal you want and we went for the cheapest... 
 
SIMON		Pewter?
 
LIZ		Wood, driftwood we found on the beach. 
 
SIMON		Oh hang on you really did make them? 
 
LIZ	No, no you really... you buy the material and you go to a workshop and they show you how to mould the material and do what you want and have it at the right size and the right width and the right design and it was lovely. And they were very wheelchair accessible they'd done the whole thing, we don't have a ramp, but they didn't need one, bless them. And the attitudes were pretty good. The only problem is we don't like the rings we've made. The morning was great because you get the shell of your ring and that's great and we have shown them to one person who was a bit stunned that they looked this good, they look very good it's not that they look really, you know, handmade and like oh my goodness like a three year old has made them sort of thing. They look great, but we've sort of gone, "Oh I don't really like them." So we've had to put them away and we're going to come back to them in a couple of weeks and see... 
 
SIMON		That's a good idea. 
 
LIZ		... whether we like them or not. 
 
SIMON	Have a little pause. Years ago I went on a calligraphy weekend down in Dorset, what are you laughing at. 
 
LIZ		I'm thinking how very BBC of you Simon. 
 
SIMON	But I used to do it as a child, you know, it's the art of writing but with thicker nibs. 
 
LIZ		Is this special school education in a very posh area?
 
SIMON		Yeah from Surrey. 
 
LIZ	 We don't make baskets we write with calligraphy. In fact we write (inaudible)
 
SIMON	We started with crayons and then gradually you move up to your big fountain pen. My point being I went with my partner and it was just a gorgeous weekend to be away and doing something like that. You mentioned Sunday, a little bit more revelation perhaps? It's not connected why you don't like the rings anymore?
 
LIZ	I'd just like to say it's not rude what happened if you're thinking this is some big rude... no this is not Mat Fraser we're talking about, this is me. This was not a rude weekend at all, it was just something that happened that...  
 
SIMON	I had, for the listeners, I did get a text message early on Sunday evening saying did I want to go to this certain thing, and me being obviously very old and stupid said, "No I'll skip it I'm going to stay in." Liz Carr went. 
 
LIZ	Anyway more on that later. Yes anyway I'm not the only one with secrets, what about you? You're looking well and healthy, you're looking a bit tanned, Simon. A bit Dale Winton. 
 
SIMON	I think you're just getting me back this month I can feel something going on. Well actually I have been on holiday to Dubai, which was good. I think I mentioned it in my article recently on the Ouch website. 
 
LIZ		Disability really is everywhere I'm telling you. 
 
SIMON		You're telling me. 
 
LIZ		Everywhere, everywhere. 
 
SIMON	In Dubai they have the ramps which I was so thrilled about but they're one in four in terms of gradient so they're a little bit fast. But I did cheat a little bit and I kind of feel really a bit pretentious that I've even done this, but I did go and have my first ever spray tan this month. And you know what, it's weird because I don't know you've got to stand semi-naked in front of somebody you've never met which is pretty weird in itself. Yeah but then you have to turn round and they spray your various areas of your body. 
 
LIZ		Wouldn't it be great if you were on a platform that rotated slowly? 
 
SIMON	 A bit like (inaudible). You know what I'd love to go in one of these, it's like Great Ormond Street they used to do that and you used to stand and they'd take pictures of you. At least this time I was being sprayed. It got to the end and I went to pay and joy of joy, it was meant to be thirty pounds, and I got my thirty pounds out and she said, "You know what I'm only going to charge you twenty." And I said, for a joke, "What because you haven't used as much spray on me?" And she went, "Yeah." And I went, "All right I'll take that." I'm quite happy I had no shame. It was weird though, I mean it faded within three days and I thought blimey that's... 
 
LIZ		Well you look well. 
 
SIMON		Well thanks very much.
 
LIZ		And you got a bargain. 
 
SIMON		But this is Dubai tan this isn't fake tan now. 
 
LIZ	Well a few months ago we talked about having hair removal, laser treatment, and I have my legs done because I can't shave my own legs, I can't reach them. 
 
SIMON		Yeah okay. 
 
LIZ	So I have my legs lasered. And that's what they do with me they give me half price. 
 
SIMON		It is a weird little quirk but you kind of think... 
 
LIZ		You're quite chuffed aren't you? 
 
SIMON	I had no problem and I didn't feel I was playing a card I thought it was kind of a nice little in-gag. And yeah I suppose I didn't use as much tan. 
 
LIZ	While we were away I did have TV though thank God, no TV as well as no internet would have been a step too far. And I couldn't resist because it's the final year of Big Brother... 
 
SIMON		You're such a big fan. 
 
LIZ	I have been a big fan over the years, Mat's always like, "No, no don't talk about Big Brother" but we had the wonderful Nicky Graham in. 
 
SIMON		Yes. 
 
LIZ	Yeah and talking very, very openly about her eating disorders and fascinating woman, but she's in there. 
 
SIMON		She's gone back in. 
 
LIZ	She's gone back in. Final two weeks it's like the best non celeb and celeb people. 
 
SIMON		Okay. 
 
LIZ	Okay for a final kind of everything Big Brother can throw at them and she went in. And my heart, whilst I wanted to see her again my heart was like, "Oh what are you doing going in there? Haven't you been institutionalised enough?" I was like her mother. I'm worried for her. 
 
SIMON	I mean she was pretty awesome when she came in on the Talk Show. 
 
LIZ	No she absolutely was. But it was all right because after the second day the bit of footage that they showed was her in the kitchen eating and I thought, "Good, now keep that down. Keep that down" as long as she's eating I'm happy. 
 
SIMON		And she's known for her tantrums and stuff isn't she? 
 
LIZ	"Who is she? Who is she?" What was upsetting I think is having interviewed her and her not being anything like she'd been portrayed on TV, that before she went in the Big Brother house everyone was like, "Oh she's the annoying one, the tantrumy one. Oh I'm not going to let her play her games with me" and I just thought actually it was a good lesson because it's like she's not like that at all. She's a good woman and she just yeah. 
 
SIMON	And if you want there's an original... all the original podcasts are still available. We even had an email, I love this email, it's from Michael Jones. He says, "I've just discovered the Ouch podcast and after a lengthy download to my smart phone I'm now listening to them from the start. I reckon I'll be caught up in a couple of months, so far I'm loving it. Thanks much muchly." So hopefully he'll hear this around Christmas but by then he will have gone back and listened to Nicky Graham's interview maybe. 
 
LIZ	And don't forget keep contributing, keep sending your emails as always to ouch@bbc.co.uk. 

[Jingle: You're listening to the Ouch Talk Show.]

Hello, Rob, welcome. 
 
ROB		Hello Liz, hello Simon. 
 
LIZ		So, Rob, have you listened to all of our podcasts? 
 
ROB	I listened to the more recent ones but there were definitely some occasions in my Roving Rob era where I was too ashamed to listen to some of the things that I got up to essentially. 
 
LIZ		And now you're back of course as our newshounds. 
 
ROB		And everything's useable again. 
 
LIZ		Why are you always the newshound? 
 
ROB	I didn't give myself this title. I prefer to be a headline pooch if that's all right?
 
LIZ	Well, poochy your first story today we may need to worry about forgetting our meds again apparently. 
 
ROB	Yes this is a trial scheme that the NHS are launching, or have launched should I say, I think it's a hospital in London. I think it's where they've started. Essentially this is quite actually amazing. It's a pill which has got a microchip attached to it. So you swallow the pill and you have a plaster on your arm which has a sensor attached to it, and if you stop taking your medicine, if you forget or feel too well and feel a bit cocky and decide you don't want to take it anymore, then the sensor actually goes off, bleeps and sends a message to your cell phone where it will text you and remind you to take your medicine. 
 
SIMON		That sounds remarkable. So the pill has got the microchip. 
 
ROB		The microchip in it. 
 
SIMON	So when the pill fades and three hours later it's done its work this sends up a signal? 
 
ROB	 If you don't take the medication as regularly as the microchip is programmed to... 
 
SIMON		Dear oh dear.
 
ROB	... expect it to be in your system then the sensor in your plaster is activated and a text message is sent to you saying "Remember to take you medication."
 
LIZ	I'm a bit scared because it feels a little bit like CCTV for the body. Do you know what I mean? 
 
ROB		 You wonder what else they're going to find in there. 
 
LIZ		 Absolutely. 
 
ROB	Well it is, it's going to get to the point where that's going to go in food as well isn't it. "Should you have had that fourth Snickers?" It's slightly distressing. 
 
LIZ		If you don't have your five a day. 
 
ROB	And the other thing is that not only will it text you and tell you to take your medicine it will also... 
 
LIZ		Text your mum. 
 
ROB	... text your GP and your parents and your family and tell them young Tommy is about to have an episode. 
 
SIMON	Now I'm wondering if there's a link here because I heard on the radio this morning there was someone who was stopped getting on to an aeroplane because they had a bottle of medicine strapped to a mobile phone. Now me being me the first thing I thought of was not this is a bomb, I thought oh this is someone who's (inaudible) the phone, it's got an alarm on the phone to wake them up to take their medication. 
 
ROB		That's why you don't work in airline security, Simon. 
 
SIMON	My innocence is so sad. But I'm kind of wondering if you've got this microchip then what happens when you do go through airport security? 
 
ROB	Well I imagine it would send it completely loopy wouldn't it I'm almost certain it would. 
 
SIMON	Rob, this is something our taxpayer money is being used to fund sex for disabled people. 
 
ROB	Well is it and this has been quite well documented I think already. And I think the main point of this is... the tabloids have launched on to the fact that disabled people can now get funding from local councils to assist them in having an active sex life. But obviously a lot of this money isn't going towards that at all, it's going towards ordinary things like carers and what have you. 
 
LIZ	What's the amount that's being bandied about it's like £540 or £560 million is going towards paying for us all to have sex. 
 
ROB		It's not nearly enough quite frankly. 
 
LIZ		For some of us it's not.
 
SIMON	There'd be a lot more sex workers I think if we were paying that much money. 
 
ROB	I can get through that amount in a week, no problem there. Anyway, but the reaction is from Carole Malone in the News of the World she's decided to issue her opinion on this matter. 
 
LIZ	This is a tabloid newspaper, in case you've never heard of The News of the World.
 
ROB		You've never heard of The News of the World.
 
SIMON	 Sorry just I'm going to jump in, this is... when you said this is... it's not a specific fund this is just part of direct payments that anybody would get and they are allocating a sum to it. 
 
ROB		 Some of it is being allocated towards... 
 
SIMON		 But that's a choice of what they spend it on. 
 
ROB		I believe so yes. 
 
LIZ	It's your very typical story of the newspapers, the media, getting hold of a little bit of a nugget of a story and not telling the whole truth. So in fact disabled people like myself or whatever are assessed for the support services they need. It is boring because actually the real story's quite boring. And Social Services will give us funding and support to buy in like I buy in personal assistants to help me go to the loo or cook a meal or whatever. But what's happened is that there was a survey done seeing could the money that we get to buy in the essential services we need be used to pay to secure sex in some way, either for us to join a dating agency or somebody to actually facilitate sex. And the majority of councils in the UK said that no they don't condone money being used that way. But of course what happened is the TV and the papers got hold of this huge pot of money, social care money, is going to all disabled people to pay for sex. No. But... 
 
ROB		It's a nice idea. 
 
LIZ		 Nice idea. 
 
SIMON	Even accepting that you mention the word 'essential services' my question would then be, sorry Rob we're not letting you read your article, but... 
 
ROB		It's okay, carry on. 
 
SIMON	 Is sex, or having sex or the ability to have sex or however you procure it I suppose is that essential? I'd kind of be really miffed if I never ever, ever, ever had it again. 
 
LIZ	I think what happens is that a lot of the people who are writing about this story are a bit fed up because it's like they don't mind us having help to wipe our bums and eat but if it's anything that they're not getting, i.e., access to sex then they get a bit wizened and a bit upset with us. 
 
SIMON	So if we buy rubbish things or just sensible things they'll allow it. But if we start actually enjoying ourselves as well? 
 
LIZ	If it's anything about quality of life beyond being washed and dressed and whatever then I think people are like, "Well I have to work for a living, at the moment the economy's such we don't have the money blah, blah, blah, why is it that this group of people that probably don't even work, get these things?"
 
SIMON	 But there are, if you are disabled and, I know this myself personally, it can be harder to find a partner or somebody else and so on because of difference and... but there are groups you can join like I remember The Outsider's Club and there's two or three others, so do you still need to pay for something like this anyway if you could join the clubs?
 
LIZ		Well what do other people think, what does she say? 
 
ROB		Well luckily, thank goodness Carole Malone is on our side. 
 
LIZ		No?!
 
ROB		Yes. 
 
LIZ		Ooh!
 
ROB	 I don't often read verbatim but I feel some of Carole's comments really should be shared with the Ouch listeners. "Why should people who are born or become disabled have to spend their lives in boring day centres weaving baskets and playing bingo. Why shouldn't they use their personal budgets to have sex, go on holiday and buy season tickets to football matches? Why should they be denied independent fulfilling lives because of some tragic hiccup in their genetic makeup?" I love it. She also says, "I've had the privilege of knowing scores of disabled people, not one of them... 
 
LIZ		And I've even slept with them. 
 
SIMON	She's earned a lot of money, oh no that's slander I shouldn't say that. 
 
RO	 ... not one of them has ever wanted sympathy and all have refused point blank to be patronised."
 
LIZ		But they all wanted sex. 
 
ROB	They've all wanted sex. So thank God Carole's on our side. I don't know what she's going to come up with in next week's column. Suddenly realising after centuries of doubt the wheel is actually quite a good invention, I don't know. But it is fantastic that Carole's on our side and this is a wonderful column. I wish I could read you the whole thing because it's so hilarious pointing out the bleeding obvious. 
 
LIZ	And what's refreshing it that I mean this is so well documented as you said in a lot of the papers, and broad sheets and the tabloids absolutely, and what was perhaps more revealing were people's comments afterwards. And I found it really upsetting, I mean, what people were saying is like "Yeah absolutely, you know, I don't even want to think this is taboo, I don't want to think about this" as if sex and disability was evil. But the other side of it is of course, you know, I don't mind my taxpayer's money being used for them to go to the toilet but anything more that's not fair. 
 
ROB	You imagine they should survive in a kind of Guantanamo Bay-esk conditions. 
 
LIZ		Absolutely. 
 
ROB		 And anything beyond that is just decadent stuff. 
 
SIMON	I think it's a double whammy the whole idea of disabled people and spending the money of the taxpayers, but also disabled people having sex as well which I think people can find very awkward. Presumably that sounds, as you say, Carole's probably more where we might naturally be coming from but other papers presumably aren't quite the same, I mean there is a little bit of kind of resistance to this? 
 
ROB	I think actually most of the newspapers even the tabloids are on the same kind of queasy moral route as Carole. But I think it's the blogs and the reader responses which are giving a truer indication... 
 
SIMON		Scary. 
 
ROB		... of how people really feel. And you're right they are more scary. 
 
LIZ	 And if you want to see something else about it or read something decent on it read Disability Bitch on it, fantastic. 
 
ROB	 Absolutely. I don't think that people necessarily think it's evil I think people are physically repulsed by the idea of it, which is, to me, even more frightening. 
 
LIZ		No absolutely. I have a story. 
 
ROB		Oh get off my turf! 
 
LIZ		I know. 
 
ROB		Get your tanks off my lawn. 
 
LIZ		I'm the news kitten today. I'm just saying right. 
 
SIMON		(inaudible)Sunday evening.
 
LIZ	Saudi man faces spine op punishment. Basically there were two guys in Saudi Arabia and one of them, they were in a fight and one of them was paralysed as a result of the fight. And under Islam law in Saudi the guy has asked for an eye for an eye. So basically he was paralysed and he would now like, because the guy was found guilty, he would now like that guy, that attacker, to be paralysed as well. 
 
ROB		In the exact same scenario. 
 
LIZ		That's the problem. 
 
SIMON	The Judge, I mean, obviously this guy who had started the fight whatever or made the other guy paralysed, the Judge asked medical experts is it possible, or how is it possible, to make someone paralysed the equivalent to this individual. And this is quite a difficult story, I mean, it's kind of, on so many levels it's really interesting. 
 
LIZ	The courts in fact are saying we have looked... the courts actually did look into it, and have looked into it, and are saying but the thing is when we operate to make him paralysed he could well die from that and that's a different... 
 
ROB		That's not quite an eye for an eye. 
 
LIZ		That's a different punishment.
 
SIMON		Hang on...
 
LIZ		That's a whole face isn't it? 
 
SIMON	Obviously we know there's still some States in the US that have capital punishment, and I know whenever they do those surveys to the UK population it's quite scary because everyone comes out and says, "Yeah if you murder someone you should face the death penalty." So if you agree with that presumably you would agree with this. It is a kind of an equivalent. 
 
LIZ	 I like the idea as well it being seen as punishment, disability is being seen as punishment. We've just talked about disability and sex is kind of repulsive and offensive. And now we have being disabled in itself is, for the guy, it's a punishment and he wants to punish and ruin that guy's life as well. 
 
SIMO	 But there's a lovely debate where you have the conversation with someone and saying, because in theory people don't choose to become disabled, it generally happens for a whole variety of different reasons, and I have heard this from people who have become disabled, look, you know, say they did this and this guy then started doing wheelchair athletics. And then it comes to 2012 and then he wins all the gold medals and he's like, "This is the best thing that's ever happened" and sometimes... 
 
LIZ		That's a great story. 
 
SIMON	... people say becoming disabled was the thing that changed my life to make it great. And so yeah it's a debate. Thank you very much, Rob, it's always a pleasure to see you. 
 
ROB		 Thank you very much. 

[Jingle: You can email the show ouch@bbc.co.uk.]
 
LIZ	 [singing] Hit me with your rhythm stick. Sex and drugs and rock & roll and the controversial Spasticus Autisticus were all hits for the late, great Ian Dury. Without a doubt the best known disabled rock star the UK has seen. Well this year various tributes, including the successful biopic starring Andy Serkis have been made to mark the 10th anniversary of Dury's death.  
 
SIMON	It's very lovely singing there Liz. This latest tribute is from the disability led theatre company Graeae. It's a musical called Reasons To Be Cheerful which celebrates Ian's life throughout his best known hits. Cast members Nadia Albina and John Kelly join us. 
 
NADIA		Hello. 
 
JOHN		Hello. 
 
SIMON		And we also have one of the writers Paul Sirett.
 
PAUL		Hello there. 
 
LIZ	Well let's start off with a little clip from the man himself. It's taken from Desert Island Discs and this is Ian talking about being disabled. 

Ian Dury: Although I'm severely disabled in some ways I'm not restricted that much by it. I can't run for buses but I don't really mind missing a few buses. 
 
SIMON	 Paul, before we go straight in because Ian Dury, I kind of feel I'm an inbetweener he was a generation just before me, but he's sort of explaining there that he got polio as a child, he was seven, but it wasn't kind of full on part of the disability movement. What does Ian represent to you being one of the writers?  
 
PAUL	Well as far as I knew at the time, well what I didn't know I should say at the time, was that Ian was disabled. It didn't occur to me that he was disabled. It didn't matter to me that he was disabled. 
 
SIMON		You mean when he was performing? 
 
PAUL		When he was performing yeah. 
 
SIMON		Right. 
 
PAUL	Or at all in any way. What I loved was his attitude. And it's interesting because Dury skipped a generation as well really because he was like 35, in his mid 30s, when he started having his success and all the other punks were like 20. An interesting guy and, like I say, I didn't have a clue I just loved the music.
 
SIMON	 Now I'm going to be controversial because some of his music I don't quite like. Gene Vincent and What a Waste is just an awesome song. But there's some other stuff where it's very kind of clunky and he was more of a... he's sometimes said to be more of a poet than a musician. It is hard making a musical out of someone who had quite unusual music? 
 
PAUL	Yeah well when you say clunky I think punk. There's a punk aesthetic there that's really raw and it doesn't kind of really matter I don't think. And those songs are wonderful to play I can assure you. And they sound great and live there's just so much energy that they are extraordinarily pieces of work really. 
 
LIZ	So it's a musical of course there's live music in there ñ fantastic. Is it a play about him, is he in there? What's the musical about? 
 
PAUL	Well the musical itself went through lots of incarnations ñ were we going to do a show about Ian, were we going to do a show using the music and just kind of put together a narrative? And in the end we've done something that's not quite either of those things. So it uses the songs but they're performed in a different context, by a pub in a band in 1981. 
 
SIMON	 Maybe, Nadia, if I can start with you ñ can you tell me a little bit about your character in Reasons To Be Cheerful? 
 
Nadia	Yeah. My character is Janine and she's a young girl and very influenced by what's going on in work and in life. And she's very... what I like about her is that she goes for what she wants and I think she's... but there's also what's brilliant about punk as well is although there's a lot of opinions being shared and kind of you're quite angry about life in general, there's so much vulnerability underneath and she's a young girl just trying to make her way I think. And that's the kind of juxtaposition of it. 
 
LIZ	 Before you came to this part how much were you aware of Ian Dury?
 
Nadia	I have to be honest I didn't really know a lot about Ian Dury. Obviously I knew a little bit of his music. I knew Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick and I'm slightly young so in terms of... 
 
LIZ		It's fine. 
 
Nadia	 ... in the sense that, slightly young in terms of I didn't really know much about him politically and what he did and in kind of the context of his time. But I did a lot of reading about him and just thought he was, you know, brilliant and the lyrics are fantastic. 
 
SIMON	John, now I'm guessing you play the lead in the band, I'm making a big assumption here. 
 
JOHN		 Why do you say that? 
 
SIMON	 I'm looking and your hair's quite Ian Dury-esk as well. I'm really getting in trouble now. 
 
LIZ		(inaudible) might have something to do with that. 
 
SIMON	Can you tell us a little bit about your character and the relationship with Ian Dury as well? 
 
JOHN	 Yeah I suppose I'm most confused out of everyone. I'm the lead vocalist of the band. So yeah it's like really exciting for me because I actually did meet Ian Dury in 1982 when I was a little lad. 
 
LIZ		You touched the man, did you touch him? 
 
JOHN		Well I didn't actually touch him no. 
 
LIZ		Oh no. 
 
JOHN		I was kept at arm's length which isn't that far away from me. 
 
LIZ		Just in case you caught it. 
 
JOHN	1982 it was really weird. I had to look back at it to make sure I wasn't making this up. But in 1982 there was an International Scout camp which isn't that rock & roll, but it was a big international camp and it was something like the first time there was an integrated camp between disabled and non disabled scouts, and all the sub camps were named after famous disabled people. And I was in Bader which isn't that cool.  
 
SIMON		This is Douglas the... 
 
JOHN		Douglas Bader.
 
SIMON		Was it World War II the guy who lost the pilot? 
 
JOHN		Yeah World War II. 
 
SIMON		Yeah, okay. 
 
JOHN		And I was in that one, so it wasn't that cool. 
 
LIZ		Was he dead by then? 
 
JOHN		I think... 
 
LIZ		So you didn't get to meet him then? 
 
JOHN		No, no. 
 
LIZ		What were the names?
 
JOHN		I can't remember. But the important one... 
 
LIZ		I'm sorry. 
 
JOHN		 ... was Dury. Dury camp. 
 
SIMON		That was the cool one to be in. 
 
JOHN	 And we snuck over because we heard Ian Dury was going to be there. And we all got into trouble because we should have stayed at Bader. So yes I did get to meet him from a distance. And so I knew he was disabled at that point because otherwise they wouldn't have named a sub camp after him. 
 
LIZ	 So that's how you found out he was... But there's a few similarities between you and Ian, would you say? 
 
JOHN	 Hmm hmm yeah I guess we've both got lovely beautiful bendy left arms. We both come from Irish backgrounds; his mum was Irish and my family are Irish. We both were special school survivors. He went to Chailey and I went to Bedelsford so that was like non residential. So we've got there. We both went into teaching. I've been a teacher, a tutor and stuff. And we've both got a bit of a mouth for the vocals and the singing so I suppose that's the other one yeah. 
 
SIMON	I did mention at the beginning some of his music, punky clunky but, as I said, the lyrics are awesome. Do you have - I'm putting you on the spot here a kind of favourite lyric? I mean some of the stuff he wrote is so witty, so joyful, so awesome is there stuff that when you sing it you think I just love this? 
 
JOHN	Yeah the Naughty Naked Nude, oh what a line that is. That's my favourite line that is. 
 
SIMON		Is that from a song? 
 
JOHN		That's from Wake Up and Make Love To Me. 
 
SIMON		Right, okay. 
 
JOHN		And it's yeah just listen to the lyrics and you'll get what I mean. 
 
LIZ	 We should say it's a real shame that because we're a podcast there are laws and rules and regulations regarding the fact that we can't actually play any of the music, which is killing us. We were saying, can we not get them just to sing it a bit. But we're not allowed to so that's why we're not going to. But you know the lyrics I mean Spasticus Autisticus.  
 
JOHN		Wibbly, dribbling, fiddling, diddling. 
 
SIMON		For those who have no concept, Spasticus Autisticus was '82 ish?
 
PAUL		1981. 
 
SIMON	1981. And it was his kind of anti-international year of disabled people was that... 
 
PAUL		That's right yeah. 
 
SIMON	And it's not quite an anthem but it's just a lovely song that you kind of quote it's this kind of a rebellion... 
 
LIZ		He called it a war cry. 
 
SIMON		It is. 
 
LIZ		Yes. 
 
SIMON	The fact that he came to that camp afterwards did you think he started to embrace disability almost as a rebellion?
 
JOHN	I mean he always had a social conscience. He always had stuff to say about what was going on, whether it was kind of working class backgrounds and struggling to beat poverty or whatever it was. He got involved with Unicef and he did quite a lot of promoting of global issues that were affecting people. So I think he's always had something to say through his music. But because he was an artist because he was a poet he had this beautiful way of saying stuff that actually you had to work at what he was saying to really get the messages. 
 
SIMON	And, Paul, the kind of the original idea for this came from where? I mean I know it's part of a 10th anniversary but did someone approach you, did you say right we've got to do this, how did it start? 
 
PAUL	I was approached by Graeae and the Theatre Royal Stratford East who are a co-producer on this particular show. But this was eight years ago, a long time ago, before all of the current... 
 
LIZ		 So were you fed up when the film came out and... 
 
PAUL		Really, really fed up. 
 
LIZ		They've stolen my thunder. 
 
PAUL	But actually I really liked the film, I really like the film and I enjoyed it immensely, I thought Andy Serkis was brilliant. 
 
LIZ	There's a great website, we're going to find out in a sec all about when's it on, where you're performing it. But there is one of his songs, Reasons To Be Cheerful, and on the website there is a Reasons To Be Cheerful generator and people, famous people, are doing it anyone can go and put what their reasons to be cheerful would be. Nadia, what would your reason to be cheerful be? 
 
Nadia		 My reason to be cheerful.
 
LIZ		Yes. 
 
Nadia	Gosh I've got quite a lot to be cheerful about. I think just doing it actually, it's been such a wonderful process and getting to know everybody in the company and the play and the people. So that's definitely a reason to be cheerful to be working on it. 
 
LIZ		John how about you? 
 
JOHN	My reason to be cheerful is a pint of Guinness with a good quality straw. 
 
LIZ		 And Paul? 
 
PAUL	My reason to be cheerful is getting to write a musical of Ian Dury. I mean he may not have wanted it but I did it anyway. 
 
LIZ		Fantastic. Now you're performing this weekend I believe. 
 
Nadia		Yes we are. At the Liberty Festival in Trafalgar Square. 
 
PAUL		 On Saturday. 
 
Nadia		On Saturday. 
 
LIZ		And apart from that when do you go on tour, what happens next? 
 
PAUL	We start in Ipswich actually the show's on in Ipswich for a week in September, or is it October?
 
Nadia		The beginning of October. 
 
JOHN		October the 14th. 
 
PAUL		Thank you. 
 
LIZ	 The panicked faces in here. No it's not September. We're in September now. 
 
PAUL	So yeah we're in Ipswich for a few nights and then we're at Stratford, at Stratford East for about three or four weeks I think. 
 
Nadia		Yeah three weeks. 
 
PAUL		Through to the middle of November. 
 
SIMON		This is quite a long website is it the name of the website what is it? 
 
JOHN		www.
 
LIZ		That bit we're fine with. 
 
JOHN		 Reasonstobecheerfulthemusical.co.uk
 
LIZ	Fantastic there'll be information on the website. Thank you so much for joining us and good luck with that. 
 
SIMON		Absolutely good luck. 
 
LIZ	And we should add that our very own Mat Fraser is of course the drummer in the band in the musical as well. 
 
SIMON	So thank you to Nadia Albina, John Kelly and Paul Sirett, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us, appreciate it. 
 
PAUL		 Thanks very much. 
 
Nadia		Thank you. 
 
LIZ		Thank you.

[Jingle: Now it's time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable]

It might be two years until the London Paralympics start but this is the game people are really talking about, Simon. 
 
SIMON	We get a disabled person on the phone and try to guess their impairment. Thankfully we are not required to figure out which Paralympic category they would compete in. 
 
LIZ	Hm on the line from jolly old England, for a change, we have Emma. Hello Emma. 
 
EMMA		Hello. 
 
LIZ		Hello. 
 
SIMON		 Hi Emma. 
 
LIZ	Yes I had somebody actually write to me recently to say why are all our Veg, Veg and Veg contestants from abroad, have all the disabled people in the UK got too much pride to apply now, but Emma you don't?
 
EMMA		I have no pride at all. 
 
LIZ		Yeh!!!!
 
SIMON		 And you've made us proud Emma. Thank you for this. 
 
LIZ		So where are you calling us from today? 
 
EMMA		 I'm calling you from Bristol. 
 
LIZ		 Bristol. 
 
SIMON		Lovely. 
 
LIZ		And do you work there? 
 
EMMA		Yes. 
 
LIZ		What do you do, can you tell us? 
 
EMMA		I'm a legal secretary. 
 
LIZ		A legal secretary. 
 
SIMON		Interesting. 
 
LIZ		 Are you on a break at the moment? 
 
EMMA		I'm on holiday for two weeks. 
 
LIZ		Very nice. 
 
SIMON	Are you going anywhere and what are you going to do for fun during this time?
 
EMMA		I'm planning on doing very little. 
 
SIMON		 That sounds very nice. What do you do to relax? 
 
EMMA		 I like rollercoasters and I do medieval recreations.
 
SIMON		Goodness me, interesting relaxing techniques there. 
 
LIZ		What was the last one? 
 
SIMON		Medieval what was it rehearsal it sounded like. 
 
EMMA		Recreation. 
 
SIMON		Are you re-enacting certain things? 
 
EMMA		We're not re-enactors we do recreations. 
 
LIZ		Okay. Is it the rules? 
 
SIMON		Yes it is. 
 
LIZ		Okay, go on Simon you do it this month. 
 
SIMON	Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Talk Show have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must only answer ‘yes’ or ’no’ It is both classic and therapeutic.
 
LIZ	To take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state you have to be disabled. Emma, are you disabled?
 
EMMA		 Yes. 
 
SIMON		We have 90 seconds on the clock, your time starts now. 
 
LIZ		Emma, do you take medication for your thing? 
 
EMMA		Yes. 
 
SIMON		Does it have a chip in it? 
 
EMMA		 No. 
 
LIZ		Do you take medication to remind you to take your medication? 
 
EMMA		 No. 
 
SIMON 	This isn't going to get it is it? Okay, you take medication. If we met you would we be able to tell you have some sort of impairment? 
 
EMMA		No. 
 
LIZ		Do you regularly go to the hospital? 
 
EMMA		Yes. 
 
LIZ		 Do you... can you walk? 
 
EMMA		Yes. 
 
LIZ		 Yes because you can see it. 
 
SIMON		No you can't see it yes. 
 
LIZ		Oh you can't see it, oh God okay. Go on. 
 
SIMON	If you didn't have this medication or these hospital... how frequently are the visits oh you've got to say yes or no. Would you go to the hospital once a month or more than? 
 
EMMA		 Less than. 
 
LIZ		Is it a neurological thing? 
 
EMMA		No.
 
LIZ		Is it like an arthritis thing? 
 
EMMA		No. 
 
SIMON		Is it a fixed thing is it going to change or is it fixed sorry?
 
EMMA		 It's not fixed. 
 
SIMON		Not fixed. 
 
LIZ		Oh so it's all over the place. Is it ME?
 
EMMA		 Yes but that's not the one I was talking about. 
 
SIMON		Oh you've got two. 
 
LIZ		 Oh you're one of these lots of things. 
 
SIMON		 (inaudible) okay. 
 
LIZ		ME, MS?
 
SIMON		Mental health? 
 
EMMA		 Yeah. 
 
SIMON		Oh so like depression or schizophrenia? 
 
LIZ		Bipolar are you bipolar?
 
EMMA		Yes. 
 
SIMON		Which one bipolar?
 
EMMA		Bipolar. 
 
SIMON		 HOORAH!!!
 
LIZ		 WHAAA, WHAA oh my God sorry. 
 
SIMON		Sorry, sorry. 
 
EMMA		I've got two and you got both. 
 
SIMON		Get out of here. 
 
LIZ		 Whoo! I'm pleased as punch. Pleased as punch Emma. 
 
SIMON		That we got it. 
 
LIZ		Well that she's got them, I mean both really. 
 
EMMA		Yeah. 
 
SIMON		So bipolar we got and the other one was ME. 
 
LIZ		Yeah. 
 
EMMA		ME. 
 
LIZ	You know quite a mouthful so when people find out you've got those two things what are the ridiculous things that they ask you? 
 
EMMA	With the ME they say, "But you're up, you're not in bed" and I'm like, "Yeah." And of course if I'm using a wheelchair it's, "How long have you been in that?" And I'm looking at my watch saying, "Oh ten minutes." 
 
SIMO	 So it is actually, I mean, forgive me I might be wrong here but is bipolar easier to explain, you know, do people get that easier than ME? 
 
EMMA	Yes definitely. Especially since Stephen Fry and all the famous bipolar... 
 
LIZ	You've got quite an unusual combination there, or I would think that's an unusual combination. 
 
SIMON		Combo (inaudible) 
 
EMMA		 Yeah. I'm the only person I know with both combos. 
 
LIZ		A condition combo we're calling it now. 
 
EMMA		 Yeah. 
 
LIZ		I like that, I like these. Excellent. 
 
SIMON		And what does it actually mean to have both of those? 
 
EMMA	It's difficult when I'm on a manic with the bipolar I can't do what my body wants to do because the ME won't let me. 
 
SIMON		So they kind of conflict with each other sometimes. 
 
EMMA		They do conflict. 
 
SIMON		Wow!
 
EMMA		And when I take my meds if I jump up and down I'll rattle. 
 
LIZ	 Emma, you've been fantastic. Really did you do it for this or did you do it for the mug? 
 
EMMA		 I did it for the mug. 
 
LIZ		Oh man. You are our medicine bottle of the month. 
 
EMMA		Yes. 
 
SIMON		Thank you so much, Emma. 
 
EMMA		No problem. 
 
SIMON		 And we're very thrilled to have guessed, that's very exciting. 
 
LIZ		Yes, thank you for letting us guess, you were easy on us. 
 
EMMA		No problem. 
 
LIZ		You take care. 
 
SIMON	And if you loved that and want to be the next contestant on Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable do what Emma did and email ouch@bbc.co.uk with the subject line 'I have no personal pride whatsoever'.

[Jingle: If you've never seen a severely handicapped person trying to speak before it can be a bit alarming.]

Liz, Sunday we haven't heard proper details and I'm sure the listeners want to hear. 
 
LIZ		Hold on. 
 
SIMON		 Will you stop scratching. Will you stop that scratching. 
 
LIZ		I'm rubbing myself on my chair. 
 
SIMON		It's unnecessary well I suppose it and I have seen that picture. 
 
LIZ		Later. Later. 
 
SIMON		I want to hear it. 
 
LIZ	I need you to tell me something because I've been away and I have been out of the news and disability stuff, Scooter Girl, I keep hearing about Scooter Girl and all I keep thinking is the Avril... 
 
SIMON		Lavigne. 
 
LIZ		Lavigne is that it that scooter ñ what is it called? 
 
SIMON		 Skater. 
 
LIZ	 Skater I don't know I'm not up with the youth. Skater Boy that's right. But now we have Scooter Girl who's Scooter Girl what's going on? 
 
SIMON	This is Tanyalee Davis, she's a comedian, she's a short comedian, she's 3'6" tall, as her publicity will tell you. And I have a little bit of empathy with her. I mean she's gone on this sort of one woman campaign because she can't get her scooter onto trains and buses and it's sort of random rules about access. 
 
LIZ		So this is her mobility scooter. She comes over she uses a... 
 
SIMON		 From Canada.
 
LIZ	Yeah. And she stays with us sometimes and she does rattle on about this whole scooter malarkey, but as an electric wheelchair user I'm like I can't be bothered listening sometimes. Why do you have problems then because you use a scooter sometimes, Simon?
 
SIMON	But I think it's because they don't know how to cope with them. There are three types of scooter, this is going to become exciting again, I'm sure I've done this before. But we have the baby one, it's tiny, it's about a metre long so that's three and a half foot, something like that. She's saying, "Disability Discrimination Act came in and they didn't consider scooters." So you say I have a scooter and actually what they think is it's some big electric wheelchair and so they just haven't got the capacity. And yet they're becoming more and more commonplace. It's frustrating we've done campaigns, as in working with Disability Rights organisations about making disabled people confident to get on trains and buses, and here is a person who wants to use it all the time and she's being denied. 
 
LIZ	Okay. So we used to campaign to get on public transport, did the whole chaining ourselves, the campaigning and whatever, and transport in certain parts of the country has improved hugely. If you're a wheelchair user it can be a bit haphazard or the ramp's broken and whatever, but generally... 
 
SIMON		The facilities are, in theory, there. 
 
LIZ	 Right. But Scooter Girl is Tanyalee okay well she has just been up at Edinburgh Fringe, listeners, which is the whole month of August is a fringe festival of art and comedy and Tanyalee was up there in Scotland. And she said that every night and day she needed to get back to her accommodation on the bus. And after the first night when she did use it, the next morning they were like, "Sorry we don't take scooters." And it would be the middle of the night she'd be trying to get home after a show, early in the morning and they wouldn't let her on, absolutely wouldn't. It's like they closed ranks and that was it. And one of the things that she... because she's come over, and she's so passionate and so wants to get this sorted, that she's done a bit of research. And one of the things apparently is that scooters are seen as alternatives to public transport. So they're seen as like little vehicles in their own right. And you know what she drives is certainly not it's like an electric wheelchair in its purpose. 
 
SIMON	I was going to say in that sense it isn't, it's the equivalent so why... if you like have that argument you say electric wheelchairs... the problem is we're having a sophisticated argument which a bus driver won't necessarily know or a train driver or whoever it might be. The bit that I kind of like of what she's doing, you said about the chaining and so on, and I mean she wrote to me a couple of emails, can you give me some help, I need some contacts, I need some thoughts and I started structuring stuff and I said, "Come on let's talk about strategy and de, de, de, da." And then essentially she's dumped all that she's just going out and she is talking to anybody and everybody she possibly can. It's almost like a name and shame campaign to say, "Listen, this is absurd, why are you being such twits about this? Why can you not just let me get on with it?" And if she can get some big comedians beside it people will be embarrassed to change rather than trying, you know, go through official channels. 
 
LIZ	 That's what really struck with me is... and really made me smile this absolute passion and sense of injustice that I certainly think some of us sometimes have lost. We had it and I'm not at all saying we haven't still got it and that people aren't out there trying to really change things. But she's come up with this, this is so wrong and she wants to talk to the Mayor of London and meet the Prime Minister, you know, and it's got this almost she doesn't see that these things would be a problem she's just like I'm going to make this happen and I'm going to... And it's quite refreshing when you've tried campaigning the other way and sometimes it can get very tiring. So I'm enthused myself. 
 
SIMON	 I think also getting that button pushed which you occasionally get. If I challenged everybody who made a comment to me in the street I would spend my whole life doing something (inaudible). So a lot of them I just let come off, water off a duck's back. But then there's a button pressed once where it goes too far. And I think with Tanyalee she was abandoned at 5:00am, she couldn't get home, she was trying to call people and nobody was answering, and this whole thing must be so traumatic and emotionally difficult. 
 
LIZ	It's funny because she was saying about, you know, that this particular person hasn't been hugely political around disability. 
 
SIMON		Not at all. 
 
LIZ	What about Ian Dury today, you know, he used his music politically, different people use their disability in different ways and politics often comes into it. Not really for Tanyalee she didn't have that. And this really interestingly I think seems to be what's flicked her switch. And I think we have that. Sometimes you get that as disabled people there's something where you just go "You know what, enough is enough." 
 
SIMON	And I don't know whether ñ I'm going to get in trouble here with her but I don't know if it's an age thing or it's just a constant having to battle against something. But yeah this was the straw that broke the camel's back, if that's the right phrase. 
 
LIZ	Tanyalee and all the people supporting her on this campaign, Scooter Girl campaign, are using things like Facebook and Twitter. And the other thing that she's going to start using is YouTube and I think that's a state of where we're at nowadays, she's actually using... you know if we chained ourselves to buses she's using things that make people go, "Oh my God." And being on the streets and blocking the streets that had its day in a way but people are so much logged in to what's on the TV or what they can download that she's going for it at that angle, so she's going for some funny clips on YouTube to try and get people's attention and go, "That's funny but oh my God I can't believe that's really happening." Do you think that's an effective way, is that a positive move forward? 
 
SIMON	One has it got to be funny, don't get me wrong I love being funny I think you can get a better message across, but does she need a shocking one? I've had on an aeroplane where you were so distraught that you'd been abandoned I used to cry, because it was so draining. Now I know how to play the game and I'll play with them and I'll get it back and it will be sorted. 
 
LIZ	 I noticed that some of the ideas were about the other things that you're allowed to take on buses that are prams so she was going to get in a pram or... 
 
SIMON		Right got you. 
 
LIZ	Like a double base case, she was going to get in there. A big suitcase things that drivers... 
 
SIMON		She's an inspiration. 
 
LIZ		And we were saying she's got politics. 
 
SIMON	Have you seen her recently? Have you been hanging out with her at all, maybe Sunday? Anything happen inspirational? Please!
 
LIZ		You want to know (inaudible)
 
SIMON		I've seen a picture of this thing. 
 
LIZ		This thing! Thank you. 
 
SIMON	I got a text message on Sunday evening inviting me to a certain thing and I thought oh it's Sunday and I'm just tired and de, de, da so I didn't. And now I'm thinking I made the biggest mistake of my life. 
 
LIZ		I came back from my lovely cottage, my lovely quiet week in... 
 
SIMO		 Isolation. 
 
LIZ	... in the cottage, isolation and all that and was invited to a Jacuzzi or hot tub party, which sounds very glamorous. In the centre of London it's a bit less glamorous when it's in somebody's back garden, I'll be honest. And when it's very, very inaccessible it's less glamorous as well.  
 
SIMON		Oh my life! 
 
LIZ	And what Simon is referring to is of course you're only five minutes out of the water when you're on Facebook and there's a picture of me and Tanyalee, she's 3'6" you know, and a bunch of other people. 
 
SIMON		You need to see the picture...
 
LIZ		You do need to see the picture. 
 
SIMON	 ... and you can see like ten bottles of champagne's disappeared. There is a dog floating around in the water, I've no idea what that is. And there are five women that are just kind of lolloped over each other. 
 
LIZ                     No it's not... 
 
SIMON	And they're all quite, what I would say, very strong formidable women. And I thought if I'd gone to that I would have been eaten alive. 
 
LIZ	 But, okay, we were in there for hours. It was quite nasty because we had a tray of floating snacks. 
 
SIMON	I'm so glad you finished that with that word, I really wondered where that was going.
 
LIZ		But the snacks fell in. 
 
SIMON		Will you stop scratching. 
 
LIZ	So for the last hour you're sitting there and an olive's coming towards you. 
 
SIMON		Or a little cheesy Whatsit floats up. 
 
LIZ	It was really nasty. Honestly the idea of it sounds very glamorous and very rock star. I promise you that's not how I live because I was sitting in there, and the nicest thing for me is that it was warm because I feel the cold, and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking this isn't the person I want to be. Honestly this isn't the person I want to be because I don't really drink so everyone around me was really drunk, I'm scared of water okay? 
 
SIMON		Oh dear. 
 
LIZ	So by the end of it, right, and I have to tell you one bit before we finish, that by the end of it I'm surrounded by two of my biggest fears - water and drunk people as a disabled person thinking how the hell am I going to get out, okay. Tanyalee was quite sober so she said, "Hold on to me while... 
 
SIMON		She's 3'6" yeah. 
 
LIZ	While your partner gets out to lift you out okay. And Jo she was the best of a bad job, she was less drunk than most people. So I'm holding onto Tanyalee, Tanyalee starts to slip and she disappeared under the water and I'm so scared about losing my balance. 
 
SIMON		 I notice you were floating over the jets (inaudible). 
 
LIZ		 And she turns over and there's this bottom that surfaces.
 
SIMON		Did you grab onto it like a bit of driftwood. Save me!
 
LIZ	 So hot tubs and disabled people really don't mix. And the picture does look like it's quite a night, but it was a night that I just thought please I never want this to happen. I couldn't get out it took about 20 minutes to get out when a guy came who had been part of it, he was taking the pictures that's why you didn't see him, and he carried me out. 
 
SIMON		 Wow!
 
LIZ	He had to carry me out the hot tub. And then because he was drunk he laid me on the sofa and wrapped me in towels. I felt like the baby Jesus being surrounded in this manger with swaddling clothes. And it was just I couldn't move, I couldn't get out the towels. We're on the bus on the way home, because they let us on the bus by the way, they let us on the bus on the way home and I started to get a little bit itchy. 
 
SIMON		Please. 
 
LIZ	 And ever since then, and it's only a few days, it's amazing I've sat through this because I'm itching, my legs are just covered in redness and I'm sorry that's gross, but I'm itchy. 
 
SIMON		You are right, it's gone very less rock & roll. 
 
LIZ		No really...
 
SIMON		It's going to turn into a very sensible tame evening in the end but... 
 
LIZ	 The moral of the story is really yeah things that might sound glamorous and they're really not because the consequence is I'm itchy as hell, and as somebody that has about 2" reach I am finding anything to rub myself against at the moment and it's not pretty, I'm like a dog at the moment. I'm rubbing myself on the back of my chair, my joystick, anything. I can't reach. 
 
SIMON	 Joining us now is Joanna Langston from the Surrey based Orpheus Project and John Kelly's stayed with us from the earlier interview, who also works at the Orpheus Project. Joanna, thanks very much for coming in. Can you tell me a little bit about the Orpheus Project ñ what is it? 
 
JOANNA	I'm Joanna Langston and the Orpheus Project is about writing songs and going on an outreach to different schools. 
 
LIZ		John, what do you do there? 
 
JOHN	I'm one of the tutors there and we support young people to grow in confidence through performing arts. So that's kind of there's song writing... 
 
LIZ		That's how you know Joanna, so it all links up dunnit' 
 
JOH		 Ah it all links up... 
 
LIZ		All links up. 
 
JOHN		... doesn't it Jo? 
 
JOANN		 Yes. 
 
SIMON		 Now, Joanna, we're going to ask you some quick fire questions. 
 
JOANNA	Yes. 
 
SIMO		 So, Liz, I'm going to line Liz up for your first one. 
 
LIZ		Are you ready? 
 
JOANN		 Yes I am, thank you.
 
LIZ		Okay. What's the best thing about singing and writing songs?
 
JOANNA	It's very, very good and exciting. 
 
LIZ		Okay, Simon. 
 
JOANNA	And I like writing all the lyrics and the words. 
 
LIZ	 It's a bit of everything really you like by the sounds of it and the words. 
 
JOANNA	Yes. 
 
SIMON	If I'd never heard your music and you were trying to describe it to me what would you say is your style? 
 
JOANNA	It's a song about a cat. 
 
SIMO	 Okay. And you like anybody else, is there anybody else who you think is a good musician that you admire?
 
JOANNA	I like Richard Stillgoe. 
 
SIMON		Ah he's linked with the Orpheus Project isn't he? 
 
JOANNA	And I like Bing. 
 
LIZ	Tell me, Joanna, Takeaway of Sunday roast  - what would you rather have? 
 
JOANNA	Sunday roast. 
 
LIZ		 Nice one. 
 
SIMON		Do you prefer to watch soaps or films? 
 
JOANNA	 Soaps. 
 
LIZ		 Dogs or cats? 
 
JOANNA	A cat. 
 
SIMON		Who's your favourite famous person? 
 
JOANNA	My favourite famous person from Eastenders is Anita Dobson. 
 
LIZ		And if you could duet with anyone alive or dead who would it be? 
 
JOANNA	Can't remember. 
 
LIZ		Would it be Bing? 
 
JOANNA	I like Bing. 
 
LIZ		 Would it be Mr Crosby? That would be amazing. 
 
SIMON		When you're not producing music what do you get up to? 
 
JOANNA	 I like to learn to play the drums, grade eight. 
 
SIMON		It sounds all music.
 
JOANNA	And it's my favourite. 
 
LIZ		 Complete the phrase 'Performing at Liberty will be...'
 
JOANNA  	... very, very nice'. 
 
SIMON	I'm sure it will be. Okay you can find out more about Jo and the Orpheus Project by going to their website. It's Orpheus.org.uk. 
 
LIZ	And Joanna will be performing Ginger The Cat at London's Liberty Festival on Saturday 4th September at Trafalgar Square. If you're lucky enough to make it along you can also catch the cast of Reasons To Be Cheerful, they'll be belting out some of Ian Dury's songs. 
 
SIMON	 We've just got to do a little bit of housekeeping, Jo, and then we'll be back to hear some of your music. 
 
JOANNA	Thanks so much. 
 
LIX	 That's almost it for Talk Show 55 for August 2010. It was produced by Emma Tracey and Damon Rose. The studio manager was Rob Winter. And for more on the Talk Show go to bbc.co.uk/ouch. Right now our message board is hopping with advice on everything from staying in work when your needs change to starting Uni when you have a disability -it's worth a look. 
 
SIMON
 Don't forget we're on Twitter and Facebook too and you can email us about anything, anything at all on ouch@bbc.co.uk. Until next month it's goodbye from the both of us and over to you, Jo. 
 
LIZ
 Jo, can you introduce your song.
 
JOANNA